Why Rape is a big deal for any girl?

Discussion in 'Mind' started by Harry, Feb 7, 2016.

  1. Harry

    Harry Active Member

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    When a girl hears the word rape, they feel the fear, anger and all sort of negative emotions in their mind and body. And the girl who is being raped , his suffering is beyond imagination of many as someone needs to go thru it to actually know it. Why is that rape is a bid deal for a girl , particularly in a somewhat conservative society like India.


    1] Bringing and brought up
    In society which is infested with standards and ideals, everyone has to aligned with it at the cost of non alignement with their treu authentic self and the result is -more and more suppressed energy in due course of time .All these suppressed emotions will need a conduit to come out. More the suppresed emotions, more it will impinge on your health .The result is that u will see rape done by such type of boys. But we shud not be in misconception that thsoe who are not convicted are sane, it just the knot of the judiciary that's stopping them from doing that. But they are not much better than the people who are incarcerated. But when such man are convicted , the society ostarcised such type of men and call for more and more stringent punishments for rapists like castration without taking recourse of the root problem. Emotional souring leading to power hungry politicians make unreasonable laws whose repercussions is felt when some innocent is incarcerated with not only him but also his family having to endure the suffering. We shud not forget that these women who are the mothers of the child suppressed the sexuality of the child and not forget the society which is just interested in making the people serf.
    Let's talk abt girls. Girls expressiveness is suppressed more brutally than the boys. Girls shud wear this and that, girls shud not mingle with boys , co -ducation banning, girls shud flip burgers in kicthen and the list just goes on and on. As the grils are bilogical weak in physical terms, neurotic people take undue advantage of this.
    Girls are constantly being reminded abt being holiness of virginity , how if he got raped her whole life will end with her family have to suffer, she will not get married and she will be burden on her parents. All these short sighted mentality is being bombared into the psyche of the girl with traumatic experinences of anger, hatred being generated by the parents. The society is not far behind this. Will u marry a rapist , most of the people will answer no. It's like a girl who is being raped by someone is an untochable. the same society will go for candle march , protest and this and that for enacting stronger laws but if we look in their backyard, piles of hypocrisy is getting collected with stench coming out of it.
    So, why rape is a big deal for a girl. The big deal is not the physical attrocities she had endure but the emotional trauma which keeps on looping in his mind, thanx to society which includes her parents. If we really want that the girl who is being raped does not feel emotionally down, does not carry the emotional trauma in the form of PTSD , the whole of her life., it's the time to change the mindset of the socuiety. Not only girls but boys shud also get their share of freedom to promote authenticity and hence a higher consciousness soceity . Then , there will be no rape and we need not need to create stupid laws which is directionless .
    In the end , boys do all suffer with girls framing them on false charges , thanx to the stupid laws being enacted by the governement. When girls suffer, there is great uproar from all sides but when boys suffer, it just a small/ minor incident. Girsl get leniency in the court of law as compared to boys. There are some girsl who want to settle their scores , want money who do such type of things. One must think why girls are doing such things, it's simple - we suppressed their authencity for years and then when they got their expressiveness back, they will surely go on rampage.
    We have stop this notion of equality for God's sake becos when we talk abt equality, we are comapring people . Where there is comparison ,there is violence. Everyone in this world is unique and that uniqueness shud be expressed in the form of authencity. So, instead of creating feminist movement, males movement, a greater voice for authencity shud be echoes in nooks and corners of thsi universe to create a balanced society.

    What are ur thoughts on rape,society and laws ?
     
  2. ajourneyunbound

    ajourneyunbound Member

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    I know this isn't very helpful, but I have to say this title doesn't look good at all lol. Its not clear that you are asking this rhetorically.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
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  3. Harry

    Harry Active Member

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    @ajourneyunbound
    I started this thread to highlight the thing that how rape impinges the life of a girl completely. I personally feel no matter how big the trauma is in ur life, u shud rise above it and I feel most of the suffering is created in the society by it's criteria , shuda's and cuda's .
    Here, in India , rape is a big deal for any girl , thanx the conservatism in the society which even manifests today. So,may be I wrote the title considering the situation in India. Also, in India there are many false cases of rape in India due the which life of male is destroyed. In India , only a male can rape the girl and vice versa does not hold true according to law which is not the case in US. The gender laws are not neutral in India. I think that's not the case in US.
    I really wanted that the people shud discuss reagrding this and I am absolutely thankful to that u came here but don't forget to add ur perspectives regarding this matter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  4. Saraswati

    Saraswati Active Member

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    @Harry: I agree that rape is coming from intense imbalance and the roots of that are very deep. Dig into the psychological history of humanity and you wind up with a story about men blaming women for their lack of control I.e. Adam and Eve. It's a really old story. But while Adam needs to learn to take responsibility and quit blaming Eve, Eve also must stop taking on shame and blame and guilt. End of story.
     
  5. Shiv

    Shiv Active Member

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    @Harry - As men we are fortunate that we don't have to deal with the idea of rape, unless of course we went to prison. But let me ask you something:

    If a group of men were to corner you in an alley as you were walking home and beat the living day lights out of you, then one muffled you as you kicked and screamed for help while another proceeded to roughly pull down your pants and underwear, while a third man shattered your knee caps with a baseball bat to make you bend over, and a fourth pulled his erect penis out of his pants and proceeded to violently ram it up your dry and unlubricated anus causing it to tear and bleed profusely while you screamed with a mixture of pain and desperation, and one by one they all took turns pounding your anus while simultaneously pounding your head with their fists until you nearly blacked out, and then they left you there, naked, covered in blood and dirt shivering in shock and disbelief.....

    Would you consider it a big deal?
     
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  6. Harry

    Harry Active Member

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    What u had mentioned , I already imagined somwhat in my mind. The thoughts itself sent shivers thru my mind. But that was initially. But as I did on and on I realised that the emotional pull got less and less. I realised one thing that the conditioning we received right from our childhood, media and society really gives us emotionally trauma converting that into rigid beleifs though we do not experience it first hand.
    If I am sodomised, definitely I will bad. But I shud also not carry that grief in a sustained manner which impinges my life and is not aligned with the force of life. Here is where the conditioning plays role and thus our griefs multiplies exponentially and turns into depression/PTSD.
    For eg--if ur mom slapped u [in Indian set up] , u will not feel bad abt it , but if some one else slaps up , u will feel angry .It's simple becos u love ur mommy and u don't love that stranger or take it other way in simpler terms -blood is thicker than water. The reality is that we shud love everyone equally but that does not happen because we rest our relationship on some criteria.
    Now, say corruption . In India, there is corruption everywhere but corruption is measured on a different yardstick than rape. Becos rape is a pressing issue for girls, daughters , mom, father and that affects their life in a harsh manner. On other hand, corruption has become part and parcel of most of our life and we are getting benefitted by it, no one care abt taking and giving bribe as long their pleasures are satisfied. But look at the poor guy who loves in shanty , for them corruption is a big deal becos money granted by the government is not reaching them depriving their family of education and good health care leading to loss of family members, even their sons might be rapists in the future only because of difficulkt conditions, they were born and brought which they don't at al deserve. But people are okay with everything that makes their life easy even that means they are doing something wrong but when it comes to something that really beats the s**t out of them ,they go mad.
    I really don't know how the members comprehended my thread but I am getting a feel that people are thinking that I am saying that rape is not a big deal. I am not saying rape is not a big deal but we shud not make make bigger deal than it is required by our force of life which is I think due to condtioning and the present scenarios in the society.
    one more thing , I want to say why members might have misinterpreted my thread becos I wrote the word big deal in it and the word 'big deal' is associated with difficult experiences , like someone arrogantly saying to way -"Not a big deal for me,dude' and sooner the members read , that neural pathways got stimulated and hence members are feeling otherwise than what I intended to say. But, that's the way things roll when we write. It really difficult for the people to understand on all dimension what the person is trying to say thru his writing. And that's why if u had read a law, it takes ample amount of words to frame a law and even then, the advocates interpretes according to their convenience sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  7. Harry

    Harry Active Member

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    @Shiv @Saraswati @ajourneyunbound
    What are ur thoughts on Free will and determinism?



    I will write my opinion . I came in contact with the term 'free will' when I saw the video by Leo gura . He said all we did is not in our control. It's just happening . He told abt the trillion of cells in the body and how all these cells acts in unison so that we can take decision.
    my opinion is Free will is nothing but control we excise on our life and that leads to suffering. determinism [I had not read much abt it] is nothing but let the life flow along the stream of life.
     
  8. Saraswati

    Saraswati Active Member

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    @Harry: Many people get really confused by the words "free" and "will". All the more so when those words are put together. I don't know what people are really asking when they ask "Do we have free will" because the idea of what free will is is greatly distorted IMO. Will is not a noun. It's a verb. But it's used as if it's a noun, as if it's a "thing". The will is a process within self that desires and follows through on the desires or not. So, a better more clear question is "Are my desires free" and "am I free to pursue my desires". Then the question is "free from what" and "free of what". What is one trying to be free from? What might desires be free of? These are personal questions and any discussion of this issue "out there" is just rhetorical entertainment and intellectual posturing. The whole "argument" is rather ridiculous if you ask me. It's not ridiculous to ask oneself these questions though.

    What's dangerous is if this argument is somehow "decided" for all humanity by some or one individual and then policies are enacted due to that decision. That's pretty scary. A decision that all is pre-determined gives license for extreme government control and an argument that everyone is absolutely free gives license to ignore the effects of policies/ideologies on individuals.

    There is no pat answer to this question. I've always found Sam Harris to be very arrogant and still do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  9. KPF

    KPF Active Member

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    Personally, I had a hard time reading your post @Harry. For one thing, I can't really identify with the cultural stigma you speak of. (Or the emotional trauma by parents, etc.) I have never been raped, but if I were, it wouldn't be about culture, society, or anything else. It would be about my psyche, and how the abject violation affects me. I don't know how conditioning or anything else can lessen the effects of rape. I don't think I could 'balance' my way out of the repercussions. I am sure the feelings might lessen over time, but I don't think that social conditioning is what would make the act horrifying.

    Sometimes I think we 'overthink' things or try to find a way to make them 'ok'. I read about how 'this' or 'that' is caused by imbalance. But in my opinion, if you are held down against your will and raped, that violates just about every instinct we have. It isn't about society or anything. It is about survival, and when it comes to survival, you are bound to have negative repercussions when it is threatened.

    You can sit there an imagine a scenario a million times and 'think' you know how you would react. But when reality strikes, you can never be fully prepared. The body has a mind of its own, and it will react however it does.
     
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  10. Em1

    Em1 Active Member

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    When we go through a traumatic experience, the brain can actually store those memories differently. So, trauma (regardless the cause) isn't something you can just rise above or ignore because your brain is processing/interpreting the emotions, memories, responses abnormally.

    It's really hard to me to analyze rape as cultural or sociological thing because it's a life thing... it doesn't matter the gender, culture, age, or how anyone was dressed or what their parents or society will think. Pain is pain. Everyone's path to recovery will be different so I don't think you can put any sort of expectation on what people will think or do.
     
  11. Harry

    Harry Active Member

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    My only question to the members is--
    Do our past experiences and our social conditioning affect in the way we relate to our present experience-it may be any thing?

    @Em1 @Saraswati @KPF @Shiv @ajourneyunbound . Read this excerpts from Osho's biography

    Just in the middle of India there is a state, Bastar. It used to be an independent state under British rule, and the king of Bastar was my friend. And he became my friend by a strange coincidence….
    We both were traveling in the same train compartment, and we both looked alike. He had a beard exactly the same size as I had at that time, and he used to wear the same kind of long robe with a lunghi wrapped around. So we were sitting in the same compartment looking at each other, thinking, "This is strange." And he was also looking at me and watching, thinking, "What is the matter?"
    Finally, he said to me, "We both look so alike. From where are you coming?" I told him. He said, "Strange…and where are you going?"
    So we were going to the same place, Gwalior. And we were going to be the guests at the same palace of the Gwalior maharani, the queen of Gwalior. We were both going to participate in an annual conference she used to call a World Conference of All Religions.
    He was going to represent the aboriginal idea. They are pagans, they don't have any organized religion or dogma; they don't have any holy scripture, they don't have any priest. And because he was an educated person, he was going to represent pagans.
    I was invited by some misunderstanding. The maharani must have read some of my books and thought that I was a religious person. On the first day of the meeting, she became so worried, because at least fifty thousand people were there in the palace grounds….
    It is a beautiful palace, and it has a huge ground where fifty thousand people can sit every year. But when I spoke, she was completely shattered. She could not sleep. At twelve o'clock in the night she knocked on my door. I had left her at ten o'clock after the meeting. I could not think who would be knocking on my door, so I opened the door, and it was the queen herself.
    She said, "I cannot sleep. You have shattered my whole mind. And now I cannot allow you to speak tomorrow." The conference was going to continue for seven days, I spoke only one time. And she said, "My son wants to see you, but I have prohibited him." She said, "Whatever you said feels to be true, but it goes against all our beliefs, all our religious feelings."
    I said, "Do you think about truth, or do you think about lies and consolations?"
    She said, "I can understand, but my young son who is going to be the head of the state is too young, and he will be impressed by you immediately." She requested me, "Just for my sake—even if he comes, don't allow him in."
    So I said, "If I am not going to speak, then I don't have to stay here. You have asked me for seven lectures, and just one lecture and you are finished. Let me do my job. Those fifty thousand people will ask for me."
    She said, "I know it, because you were the only one they seemed to be interested in, and there was absolute silence. I have never seen such silence in the crowd. The priests go on speaking, who cares? They are telling the same thing again and again, year after year, the same dogmas. For the first time," the queen said to me, "I understood what it means to have pindrop silence. So they will be asking, but it is difficult, because all the other participants are absolutely against you."…
    She said, "You are going to create trouble, and I want no trouble."
    I said, "Then if you want to keep those people, you don't understand. You will be in trouble."
    At that moment the Bastar maharajah also came in. He was staying in the next room in the guest house with me. And he said to me, "You have done a great job, and if you have to leave, I am coming with you."
    That's how we became friends. And he invited me to his state. So from Gwalior I went directly to Bastar. It is far away from Gwalior. And he introduced me to the people of Bastar. They are aboriginals, and they live almost naked. They put only a small piece of cloth around them when they come to the main capital, Jagdalpur—otherwise, in the forest, in the mountains they live naked….
    And the aboriginal children who don't have any dreams at all.
    Freud could not have conceived that there are people who don't have any dreams, because the Christian-Judaic religion is so repressive. People who have been brought up in that culture cannot conceive that there are still aboriginal people around the world, hidden in deep forests, who are absolutely natural beings. Those people have never heard that there is anything to be repressed.
    You can ask a woman, even by touching her breast, "What is this?"—and she will not feel embarrassed, she will not feel offended. She will say, "This is just to give milk to my child," with no idea that "you are being offensive, you are touching my breast." She is not going to scream, and she is not going to any police station; in fact, there is no police station there.
    The people are so innocent, that rarely does it happen that somebody kills someone. It has happened perhaps twice in this maharajah's lifetime. Then the person who has killed comes to the capital himself, because only the capital has the police station and the court. He goes to the police station and informs them: "I have killed a man and I need to be punished." Otherwise no one would ever have known that he had killed anybody. Nobody goes into those deep forests. They live in caves; nobody goes there. And they have such beautiful caves.
    And they are such beautiful people. You will not find anybody fat, you will not find anybody thin—they all look alike. They live long, and they live very naturally. Even about sex they are very natural, perhaps the only natural people left in India.
    And exactly what they do, has to be done all over the world if you want people not to be perverted. Behind all kinds of mental sicknesses is sexual perversion. In Bastar I found for the first time, people totally natural.
    After a girl and a boy come of age—that is thirteen and fourteen…They have in their villages, in the middle of the village, a small hall just made of bamboos, as their huts are made. The moment a girl starts having periods, she has to stay in the central hall. By the time a boy is fourteen, sexually potent, he has to live…All the girls and the boys who have become sexually mature, they start living together, sleeping together, with one condition—and that is a beautiful condition—that no boy should sleep with a girl for more than three days. So you have to become acquainted with every girl of the village, and every girl has to become acquainted with every boy of the village.
    Before you decide to marry someone, you must know every woman of the village, so there is no question arising afterwards that you start feeling lustful for some woman. You have lived with all the women of your age, and it is your choice after the experiment with all the woman.
    And there is no jealousy at all, because from the very beginning everybody is living with every girl. Every boy has the chance to be acquainted with every girl of the village, and every girl has the chance to be acquainted with every boy of the village.
    So there is no question of any jealousy, there is no competitive spirit at all. It is just an experiment, an opportunity for every child to know sex with different people, and then find out who suits you, and with whom you were the most happy, with whom you settle harmoniously, with whom you felt your heart. Perhaps this is the only scientific way to find a soul mate.
    But these people are called uncivilized, and missionaries are doing a great job of civilizing them: opening schools, hospitals. They don't need hospitals. They are such healthy people, and these missionaries bring all kinds of diseases to them. They have never heard about gonorrhea, they have never heard about all kinds of perverted diseases. The missionaries bring the diseases, and then the hospital.
    The missionaries bring the idea to them that you are poor. They have never thought about it—they are all equal, equally poor. There is no question of comparison, and they are living perfectly well, and healthy, on one meal a day. They are more healthy than anybody else in the world.
    Just recently scientists have been experimenting on rats, and they were puzzled. They kept two categories of rats, the same kind. To one category they were giving as much food as they wanted—American rats. And to the other category, the Bastar rats, they were giving food only one time. And they were surprised. The rats who were given whatever they wanted, lived to be only half of the age of the rats who were fed only one time. They were double the age—twice the American fellows!
    So Bastar people live longer, although they don't know how long they have lived, because they cannot count. They live up to one hundred years very easily, one hundred and twenty very easily. If you search deeper in the forests, perhaps you can find a person who has lived one hundred and fifty years. They don't know it—you have to figure it out. And they don't look that old either.
    Even the oldest person goes on working. Life is hard, but it is beautiful. Every night—particularly when it is fullmoon nights—they dance to abandon. The whole day they have been working hard, and in the night they dance. All the women, all the men together…no question that you have to dance with your wife. People go on changing partners. It is a social phenomenon, it is not a question of possessiveness that you should dance with your own wife. And if she is dancing with somebody else, then you are looking jealous, you are looking murderous.
    I have watched their dances. They look so beautiful. There is no question of any lust, because they are fulfilled, sexually fulfilled, physically fulfilled.
    They don't have dreams. I have asked many. I have asked the maharajah. He said, "They don't have dreams, but I have because I am an educated person. They destroyed me. I was born in these hills, and I would have loved to remain just as uneducated, as uncultured as these people. Their joy is infectious, their laughter is infectious. But they don't have any dreams."
    There is no need for dreams. A dream is a need created by a repressive morality, by a repressive God, by a repressive priesthood. These are the people who have created dreams. And then another priesthood has come into being, the psychoanalyst. They exploit your dreaming. One priesthood has created the dreams, another priesthood…and both were Jews.

    I may have told you: I was staying in Central India—there is a small aboriginal tribal land, Bastar. I used to go there often just to see how man was ten or twelve thousand years ago, because they are that far back. They live naked; they eat raw meat.
    I used to study how man must have been and how he must have evolved. I was staying…. In those days Bastar was a state, and the king of Bastar was my friend. He was a very courageous man, and he loved me so much that just because of me, he was killed.


    Link----http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/innercontent.asp?FileName=biography5/05-31-aborig.txt

    Excerpts from
    Roots of Psychological Disorder
    J. Krishnamurti

    First Discussion with David Bohm, John Hidley and Rupert Sheldrake in Ojai
    April 1982


    JH: Maybe we increase the physical suffering because of our psychological problems.

    K: That's it. That's it. Sir, a mother bearing babies, she goes through a terrible time delivering them. Strangely, she forgets that pain. She has the next baby, another baby. In India, as you know, there mothers have about seven or eight children. If they remembered the first agony of it, they would never have children. I have talked to several mothers about it. They seem to totally forget it. It's a blank after suffering. So is there an activity in the psyche that helps the suffering to be wiped away? Recently, personally I have had an operation, a minor operation, there was plenty of pain; quite a lot. And it went on considerably. It's out of my mind completely gone. So is it the psychological nourishing of a remembrance of pain - you follow - which gives us a sense of continuity in pain?

    Link---http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=1484&chid=1181

    P.S.-- I am not undermining the pain and suffering caused due to rape but I am trying show different perspective that are involved while we experinence pain or any suffering
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  12. Shiv

    Shiv Active Member

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    @Harry - no doubt social stigmas around things like rape can greatly exacerbate the already present trauma that the event causes and can prolong suffering. But then that goes for pretty much anything in life, so I don't think rape should be singled out as something special. In that case unemployment, death, imprisonment all carry the same stigmas and exacerbate suffering.

    However, there are certain kinds of events that can severely damage the psyche and rape is one of them. Case in point being that of when young children are molested. Before they even know what sex is or what society's view of sexuality is. They intuitively develop a feeling of deep shame, a sense of being abused in a very core sense. Many of them don't even mention it to their parents and the effect it has on their psyche for years to come is significant.

    When my parents separated when I was young it fractured my psyche in profound ways, ways that took me a long time to resolve and integrate. In many ways it served as one of the greatest catalysts in my own growth. But that does not take away from the severity of the event. At the time I had no view of divorce being either good or bad. All I knew was the cloud of pain and negativity that I was forced to be surrounded by at home. Today, just like Krishnamurti, that pain has been wiped from my mind. But that doesn't mean that those events weren't a big deal.

    In an effort to develop a deeper understanding of painful events and our power to transcend them, I think it is a mistake to then imply that those events themselves are not as significant as we make them to be. That's a common error I have seen many teachers (including Osho) make. They absolutely are that significant. But what is even more significant is that we have the power within us to eventually transcend them.
     
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  13. Harry

    Harry Active Member

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    @Shiv
    One more question I want to ask u
    U lived in India , then Canada and now Japan.
    If I think of changing even cities, that's a difficult decision for me with all the fears that might come into my mind which might include the people of the country wud accept me or not.Considering the fact that I consume lot of internet news which shows how foreigners are considered job stealers and they have to bear the brunt of racism [ not all people in the migrant country though have this kind of behaviour] . U have family with a small daughter which again is a big issue becos children are very tender and one mistake of ours can have far wreathing effect on them.Then finding a job with different education system , the list will go on and on.
    What are ur experinece regarding changing countries? What do u think abt that?
    Last but not the least, this is bit offtrack. How did u learn Japanese language. I read on the internet that chinese, Japanese, language are the most difficult to learn? [ I think u know Japanese becos in one of the articles in ur blog u mentioned ur trip in Japan [the driving of car in mountains]
    considering the fact , I am trying to learn spanish, ur experience wud be useful to me?
     
  14. Shiv

    Shiv Active Member

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    I also lived in the Middle East for a number of years. That was by far the most racism I have faced. While I have also experienced racism in Canada and Japan, it is much more subtle rather than in your face.

    To be honest, "being accepted" has never been a worry for me when I considered moving. All my life there were very few people who were truly able to accept me, so it's something I am quite comfortable with. Practical things such as finding work, a home etc were things to think about of course, but again not something that made me lose much sleep. The impact on my daughter was an important factor for me of course, but in my mind the positives of the experience for her far outweighed the negatives. I knew she would have an adjustment period, but I also knew that she was adaptable enough and open enough to completely embrace it - and she has. The most important thing for me was to ensure that her foundation is solid - her foundation being our family of her, my wife and I. That has always been my foremost focus. Then even if the living circumstances drastically change, she has this foundation to always keep her anchored within herself.

    My Japanese is not great. I can get around fine, but I can't have very profound conversations. That's one of the nice things about living in Japan. I no longer have the ability to express my opinions with people. I am forced to play more of the silent observer role in social scenarios, I spend a lot more time listening than talking. Even though it's a limitation, there is a kind of freedom in this limitation. Living in a country where I can't understand or express complex opinions, I come to see just how irrelevant opinions are in having a good quality of life. In fact, I would even venture to say that it is our obsession with opining that compromises our ability to experience.

    I saw it all the time when I lived in Canada: this opinionated generation that we are. Opinions flying everywhere like debris on anything from spirituality to spray paint. It's constant and in your face all the time. It's on your Facebook newsfeed, it's on this forum. For me this forum has become like a little guilty pleasure where I go to express an opinion from time to time, like a recovering chocoholic might steal a bite of chocolate every once in a while. But yes, the inability to communicate has been a true gift. It's the one reason I haven't been motivated to work hard at improving my Japanese. I'm afraid that if I learn to speak it well then I'm fucked!
     
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  15. Saraswati

    Saraswati Active Member

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    @Harry: I completely agree with Krishnamurti that it is the psychological nourishment of a remembrance of pain that creates the suffering. That is the "pain body" that E. Tolle speaks about and the "negative self" that we seek to rid ourselves of. But we cannot rid ourselves of our own experiences. We can only integrate them and this occurs by no longer giving nourishment to what we don't want.

    In terms of a traumatic experience people can be unwittingly harmed further by those who persist in seeing them as victims but on the other hand a person who has been traumatized needs to integrate that experience and this takes "time" as it's a process. Rape is entirely psychological actually but we live in a psychological world. Really all of experience is "mental" but part of mental is physical. It makes no sense unless you conceptualize it as the subtle to the gross and that every level begins with and includes the subtle and is affected all the way up to the gross which feeds back to the subtle. How an experience is conceptualized affects the subtle because concepts are more subtle than gross but the subtle then becomes the gross level and on and on. So the "cause" is deep in terms of physical and psychological with rape trauma. In the psychological history of humanity what we deem rape now was once viewed as a mans right but due to the effect on the woman this act came to be viewed as an extreme violation. There are deep and very negative energies/ideas connected to the act of rape and nobody could reasonably expect a woman to just "get over" a rape. It will affect her for the rest of her life. The act will affect the perpetrator for the rest of his life also. In fact everything that happens shapes the whole course of humanity and thus processing and integrating experience for the highest good becomes all the more important IMO.

    The highest good can never include creating demons because demons are not ideal. But the highest good also does not entail creating angels because angels are an unreachable ideal. The highest good entails understanding the roots of situations that culminate in rape. The roots are embedded into the psychological history of humanity and affect every man, woman and child alive. When we see the ideologies that promote rape on any level the only recourse is to reject them wholly. Demonizing the rapist or glorifying the victim are just projections designed to shield ourselves from our own faulty concepts of humanity and ourselves.
     
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  16. Harry

    Harry Active Member

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    @Saraswati
    I think all the criminals who undergo incarceration for-murder, rape, pedophilia etc became criminals only because they wer being abused by their primaty care givers intentionally or unintentionally which may be due to their underlying mental health issues . And ultimately, the emotional trauma is so huge for them that they are not able to process it and develop unhealthy defense mechanism to cope up with it and consequently when these unhealthy defense mechanism gets exaggerated crime occurs. We as a human or society at large had always look criminal as someone who is despicable , harmful entity who is beyond repair or worthless person whose place is only prison. Even in prison which is a correction facility, they are constantly being reminded that u are criminals and u do derserve any human rights and at the end of the day, most of the people out there become more emotionally traumatised and hence when they get out as they don't get any job, they do more crime. The job of government is to treat the effect/symptoms and not the root cause. I personally feel that the criminals or to be more proper , I can call them mentally unstable people shud get proper emotional or mental health counselling when they are doing their jail time with no suppression of their human rights and thus when they get out , they wud lead a better life.
    Also, the idea of capital punishment is not the thing I wud support becos I feel we don't have the right to kill someone [exception for self defense] becos every human being , no matter how much crime he has comitted can be brought back to his path of alignment. This wud have far reaching effects on the global psyche of the universe, although this is a diificult job to do.
    My questions--
    1] Capital punishment -right or wrong
    2] Creating a directory of pedophiles or shaming the criminals by publishing their pics and name in newspaper- Right or wrong
    3] Jail /punishment system-Are they doing their job ?
     
  17. Saraswati

    Saraswati Active Member

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    @Harry : Capital Punishment, Sex Offender Registries, Prisons etc. , even attempts to rehab are all external measures and those never bring about any real change. Change occurs in individuals and individuals change when they see a better way. If individuals are profiting in any way from their mentality, they won't change. Profit is the ultimate value. What people value has to do a lot with conditioning and they may be completely unaware that they value stress and strife and turmoil but yet they do because they are getting some pay off, some perceived profit out of it. Nobody changes until the value or juice is gone. When they see a better way, really see it, they change. Period. So you can go on and on about society and change and this and that but society won't change until individuals change and individuals won't change until they no longer value the external over the internal. What we are seeing in the world is a world where the order of operations is reversed. Value is perceived as from the outside in. This is a delusion but it's a very convincing one. It's just the way it is.
     
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  18. Harry

    Harry Active Member

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    @Shiv @Saraswati @grausam
    What are ur thoughts on quantum physics, string theory and all the therotical physics which is being churned out?
    Somewhere down the line [although I am not an expert in it, just a layman] , I feel that it's just jugglary of thoughts which can be easily shot down if the very basic source from where all these things are coming is being questioned.
    Is consciousness is related to quantum physics and big gang theory in any way? Can physicists or any scientist exactly prove the existence of consciousness so that the whole human consciousness can be driven in it's path?
     
  19. Em1

    Em1 Active Member

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    I'm reading a book right now about trauma and it basically mirrors what you're saying. Mental health issues don't have to be ailments - it could be a parent going through their own trauma or depression and as a result a child gets neglected. Or, in the case of abuse, children become hypersensitive to negative emotions in others (fear, anger, etc). It's pretty easy to understand - If an angry adult hit you, you probably would be hypersensitive to when any adult becomes angry (because they could hit you too). Many of these kids suffer from a type of PTSD.

    In the case of @Shiv and his daughter, even though she is going through a major change she's got support from loving and parents who are aware of her needs. Not all kids have that - how a child learns to cope is a big predictor of how they will cope as an adult. In this book, they suggest that situations that leave us with trauma (children or adults) are when we have no control. If you think about it - physical abuse, rape, seeing things in war, having someone close to you die unexpectedly - these are all situations which we have no control.

    They used an example of a young child who saw the events at the World Trade Center in 2001. The next day, he made a drawing of what he saw. He drew the buildings on fire and bodies jumping. He also drew ambulances and a trampoline. He said if it happened again, the people would have a way to survive. He didn't experience a trauma and his mind was able to process his thoughts and feelings about the experience.
     
  20. Em1

    Em1 Active Member

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    This is a really interesting observation. Do you think the Japanese are opinionated and you just don't understand? Or that they might be more conservative with giving their two cents? I know culturally they are much more in tune with the collective than the individual.

    I notice a huge difference when I engage in conversation off the forum. The other day I got involved in a couple conversations on Facebook groups with different sets of colleagues... One person thought I was being condescending when I asked her a question about something I didn't understand. Another group someone ripped me a new one for asking an introspective question to the group (more delicately than I would ask here). I've seen this combativeness and projection before and I've quit engaging because of it (unless its private or a group of people I know well). Ten years ago it was just having a guard up but now Americans are going on the offensive. I remember noticing that when I moved back to the States from Canada (and I noticed it again when I visited last year). In Canada, people you don't know well will open up to you and show vulnerability in a way you generally don't see in Americans. You're encouraged to share your opinion up there but if you don't agree, it's a lot more respectful and a lot less emotions being thrown at you.